tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post3301989977157114121..comments2024-03-19T02:19:09.276-07:00Comments on International Socialism: Can the SWP deal with rape allegations?International Socialismhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15884867913095807179noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-49084559672674532622018-10-04T02:14:10.971-07:002018-10-04T02:14:10.971-07:00This article describes everything very well.This article describes everything very well.Matildahttp://www.pdescorts.com/meet-matilda-girl.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-7765909465246491222013-10-24T09:12:37.427-07:002013-10-24T09:12:37.427-07:00I find that even most of the non-SWP people who...I find that even most of the non-SWP people who've contributed here have nevertheless situated the issue within the context of the self-proclaimed 'far-left' and its imagined interests. Mention has been made of the 'bourgeois' nature of the police and court systems as if there exist some 'proletarian' alternative. <br /><br />I would like to ask a question: Suppose a rape victim were to take the matter to the police and the it was prosecuted and a conviction secured; what would the SWP DC do then? Would they say the bourgeois court could be trusted and their own investigation took precedence? Or, would they say that the case was proven in court and the DC takes that as its cue to act. And, would this apply to other political formations such as the Labour Party - Cyril Smith comes to mind?<br /><br />Self-regulation in matters of party protocol, policy and practice is one thing, but where a reactionary crime is alleged, other things surely take precedence. Of course the victim should have been guided by the DC to lodge her complaint with the police. The fact it did not shows the sectarian interest being uppermost, even against the membership.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-63194804853621991432013-03-12T05:29:38.863-07:002013-03-12T05:29:38.863-07:00Does the DC have 'terms of reference' writ...Does the DC have 'terms of reference' written down anywhere? What are the limits of its investigatory powers? MichaelRosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16891052661059920680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-31567499290963102302013-02-19T00:55:27.611-08:002013-02-19T00:55:27.611-08:00I think your proposals as to how to deal with this...I think your proposals as to how to deal with this are appropriate. However, as this was already the disciplinary method used by the SWP in the past, it difficult to blame the leadership for carrying through their usual procedure. <br /><br />As I understand it, the woman who made the allegations did not want to go to the police. If so, then she knew that the maximum sanction against the accused would be expulsion from the SWP and one must assume that this appeared an appropriate sanction to her. <br /><br />If there were previous rape allegations this implicates people who now present themselves as so much better, like Rees and German, who now lead Counterfire. If one accepts that this method of investigation is in itself fundamentally flawed, then the previous cases which found men guilty were also flawed. <br /><br />The origin of all of this is of course not the bad intent of some SWP hacks, but the method of dealing with the world. The belief in the superior justice and morality of the party. This could have some validity where the society has a more reactionary attitude to rape for example in a country like Iran. And the historical genesis of the current problem lies precisely in the attempt to inoculate the SWP from society when it its own attitudes were more progressive than society at large.<br /><br />I do find the general atmosphere around the issue of rape is becoming like 'holocaust denial' and this is not a healthy development. This begs all the more for an external appraisal of these forensic issues rather than emotive posturing. <br /><br />The issue then goes to the heart of the discussions about rape in society in general rather than in a political group. After all why should rape in the SWP be treated any differently than in society as a whole? And those who defend the rights of the abused should protect them regardless of their political views. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08793547202804283298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-26043949761053246462013-02-06T15:33:10.829-08:002013-02-06T15:33:10.829-08:00You write, "I have also faced the argument th...You write, "I have also faced the argument that the DC has investigated 9 rapes in the past". Having re-read this I have 3 more crucial questions.<br /><br />(1) I now realise that combining 'investigation' & 'rape' in the way you did is unusual because what's normally said is either 'an investigation of alleged rape' or 'we agree with the accuser that a rape had occurred'. What you wrote, "the DC has investigated 9 rapes", can only mean that the finding of the DC was that there had indeed been 9 rapes. Is that what you meant to say?<br /><br />(2) You say "the DC has investigated 9 rapes". As you can appreciate, this does not necessarily mean 9+9 people. That is, it could be 2 people: one interpretation consistent with what you wrote is that the DC has judged there to be a single SWP member who raped 9 times. The point is this: given what you were told about the DC's work how widespread is rape in the SWP?<br /><br />(3) As the great majority of rape trials end in acquittal it is likely that the DC has heard other than the 9 you refer to. Do you know how many SWP members have said they were raped but have had their claim rejected by the DC? <br /><br />I hope you can clear this up because many commentators on the net & people at work & in the labour & socialist movement are saying you have been told the DC has judged there to be 9 rapists in the SWP.<br /><br />Thank you. Jara Handalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17698670327995341251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-90725328613323789172013-02-05T01:42:00.027-08:002013-02-05T01:42:00.027-08:00I largely sgree with Dave's view but not all o...I largely sgree with Dave's view but not all of it. First and foremost, the allegation is rape, it is a crime. Thats what is important to bear in mind here. A criminal act has been alleged and the SWP seems to think it is above the law. <br /><br />The SWP and their arguments on womens liberation is now entirely bankrupt by the actions of one rather unattractive leader, Martin Smith (allegedly).responsiblefatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13476750083037640742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-61100820860455198112013-02-04T11:43:46.069-08:002013-02-04T11:43:46.069-08:00I expressed myself clumsily & unfeelingly at t...I expressed myself clumsily & unfeelingly at the very end of the opening paragraph, so please let me apologise & clarify what meaning I had hoped to convey. <br /><br />Contrary to both the opinion of the DC & the 15 January statement by the ISO Steering Cttee. (www.socialistworker.org front page) I do not believe a supposed revolutionary socialist organisation in either a liberal democracy or indeed in a workers' state should investigate & adjudicate upon any alleged serious crime. The ISO shows how ludicrous it is in saying such an organisation "MUST . . . have the CAPACITY - and indeed the RESPONSIBILTY" (my emphases) to judge a rape allegation. I'm pleased that it seems Phil Gasper rejects this as he's an initial signatory of the boycott of the SWP (see www.openletterswp.wordpress.com). <br /><br />The first task of the sort of DC I spoke of would be to ask Cde. W if she wanted to meet them. I strongly regret not saying that. My intention in saying the DC should again attend to her allegation is that from the outside, only having carefully read the transcript of a recording of the Conference session, the DC had behaved outrageously. Let me be clear: I have total confidence that any set of lay members having met Cde. W (& attending to anything she thinks the SWP can do for her), & having discussed the record of the DC proceedings, would realise they could NEVER be competent to deal with her allegation. That is what I meant to convey, although I don't think my initial comment came anywhere near to doing that. Again, I regret what I wrote. <br /><br />I hope, Linda, that you can answer my 2 important questions because having introduced the topic of 9 (or 10) previous rape cases into the public realm we all need to understand unambiguously what you are saying.<br /> Jara Handalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17698670327995341251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-13156753031254986312013-02-04T08:59:46.254-08:002013-02-04T08:59:46.254-08:00Fred, you're missing the point, I think. It is...Fred, you're missing the point, I think. It isn't that Smith did something...anything...criminal per se. It's that he harassed and raped a young woman comrade*. This is a fundamental abuse of male privilege, a despicable use of a weapon of oppression, a crime against all women and all the oppressed, and a betrayal and a crime against our tradition. If you're seriously equating a rape with illegal strike activity, then you completely miss the point about what women's oppression is. No one cares a whit if Smith threw a garbage can through a high street window during the poll tax riots. Every socialist on the planet should care immensely that he raped someone. (Just as everyone should care if he were seen partying at a BNP/EDL concert. Imagine his denial/apology, "Of course I wasn't there, but I'm no angel and sometimes the stress of all this party work gets to me. I hope the comrades understand." [standing ovation].)<br /><br />*I know it's supposedly *not proven,* but if comrades actually paid attention to women's oppression, then they'd know how extraordinarily rare a false rape charge is; but if members actually want to pretend that **Smith** is the victim of a frame-up by someone (who wanted it kept quiet and didn't want to go to the police), well then they are lining up with all the right-wing scum who peddle this kind of sexist filth. If the SWP actually cared about fighting women's oppression--or even its image, ffs--they would have suspended Smith immediately, given W all the support she required, including/especially if she wanted to go the police, and then **made verbatim transcripts of the hearings PUBLIC** (redacting W's name only, if she desired) to show the class and the world how seriously it takes women's oppression, and how brilliant its ability to deal with these issues is compared to the existing courts. Instead, it chose to protect one of its own (and throw another of its own under the bus) and tell anyone concerned by such issues as the oppression and exploitation of women to keep quiet and focus on "things that matter." The only solution to staining its reputation forever is to reverse course: recognize the failings openly and issue a public apology; expel Smith; reprimand, suspend, or expel anyone involved in this cover up; retry in public or make public the DC transcripts; vindicate W; and rededicate the SWP to the complete eradication of sexism, wherever and whenever it raises its head.<br /><br />Otherwise--fair or not--it will be lumped FOREVER with the WRP and Healy's rape cult.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284235781474300356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-39976403122639627372013-02-04T06:51:18.301-08:002013-02-04T06:51:18.301-08:00I support the attempts to democratise the SWP. I a...I support the attempts to democratise the SWP. I also think accountability of 'leading comrades' would be greatly improved by amending the Constitution to make the DC solely composed of lay members, with no CC representation as that body has shown it can't be trusted. If legal advice says there would be no interference with any possible judicial proceedings then the first work of the DC would be to re-hear the allegation made by Cde. W.<br /><br />Now my point.<br /><br />Linda, do you believe it is true that the DC has deliberated upon 9 previous rape cases?<br /><br />Also what is the evidence for there being 9 cases?<br /><br />(I have just made a detailed comment on this matter at www.socialistunity.com, 'The Empire Strikes Back' topic on the front page.)Jara Handalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17698670327995341251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-85927881449559308402013-02-04T04:21:55.428-08:002013-02-04T04:21:55.428-08:00Amnesties are my favourite counter-example to this...Amnesties are my favourite counter-example to this kind of <i>well-er-bourgeois-law-innit</i> line. In 1970 the Italian government - under heavy pressure from the Left - passed an amnesty retrospectively de-criminalising offences committed in the context of strikes and demos during the Hot Autumn: the balance of forces had shifted, and consequently those acts ceased to <b>have been</b> crimes. All entirely compatible with the rule of law.<br /><br />Picture yourself on the morning after the General Strike. Does what Cde X did, back in 2013, still look like it ought not to have happened? Does Cde X still look like [s]he ought to have been punished for it? If the answer's No (which it will be in most of the examples you're thinking of), let it go. If the answer's Yes, damn right you should tell the police.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-52178983728262338902013-02-04T01:29:53.623-08:002013-02-04T01:29:53.623-08:00I'm pleased to read in the motions to conferen...I'm pleased to read in the motions to conference that ISJ articles on rape are in the pipeline. Reflecting on where I stand has led me to recollect the political influences that led me to what I consider to be a solidly materialist position on "where does rape come from?" But honestly I cannot recall a single SWP publication that was not brief and platitudinous on the subject. I was actually struck by a polemic on liberation theology that talks about the everyday violence of capitalism (so actually I get my Marxism from the Catholics!) Can comrades suggest what I should have read?ElizaGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16941494320271090571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-70638117227249447262013-02-04T01:02:12.433-08:002013-02-04T01:02:12.433-08:00I must have missed this, but where do the DC or CC...I must have missed this, but where do the DC or CC say in the conference transcript that they are investigating the alleged rape in the manner, and with the techniques and support of the bourgeois state?<br /><br />The DC and CC act on behalf of the SWP, not the police or courts and their review of the matter is designed to ensure that if the alleged rape and/or harassment did take place the offender would be out of the party. Nowhere did I read in the transcript of the DC report to conference that they thought they had the power or means to conduct a forensic investigation and then fine or imprison the alleged culprit.<br /><br />I think those within the opposition who are looking for support from those to the Right of them outside the Party are going have some difficulty explaining how it is that 'all' instances of 'criminality' (militancy at rallies, occupations etc) should not in future be reported to the police. The concept of the 'rule of law' is rather absolute to liberals after all...<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05211501866709661083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-22085126915685133872013-02-04T00:48:46.139-08:002013-02-04T00:48:46.139-08:00I'd say Sean's comments are quite indicati...I'd say Sean's comments are quite indicative of the autonomist quarters the opposition is seeking support from.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05211501866709661083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-75287868444254358162013-02-03T05:12:12.619-08:002013-02-03T05:12:12.619-08:00I'm not a member of the SWP, but all of us on ...I'm not a member of the SWP, but all of us on the far left are affected by this sorry episode. You only have to look at Nick Cohen's appalling attack on the whole left in today's Observer to see that. So, the SWP leadership has done us all - not only in the UK either - a deep disservice by the way that it has handled - and is continuing to handle - this case. The other reason I am commenting is that there is still discussion to be had in the left of how to deal with cases like this and I consider this posting to be an important contribution for us all.<br /><br />A left group, in the UK under current conditions, is in no position to adequately carry out a rape investigation and "trial" and it is hubris to think that it can do. This blog rightly points out that that the DC could perfectly well have investigated the alleged perpetrator for breaches of "norms" (harassment,sexist behaviour etc.) and expelled him if they were found to be substantiated, without prejudicing any other actions the complainant may want to take at a later date.<br /><br />I was disturbed to see that the DC had "investigated" and "tried" nine other alleged rapes. I don't want to suggest that the victims should necessarily have gone to the bourgeois courts instead, but at least there the different accounts of what actually happened would have been aired in public. I presume the SWP membership knows nothing of what went on in these previous trials, as they don't with Delta's? This is not a small issue, especially in issues of rape, where public campaigning, as a result of some of the terrible things that have gone on in trials, has had a big influence (but not enough) in improving the law and police and trial procedures.<br /><br />Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i47NAtcxEcPhilWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16564789910574403511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-48257875346170749722013-02-02T09:07:39.275-08:002013-02-02T09:07:39.275-08:00I am a concerned ex member too, and glad that the ...I am a concerned ex member too, and glad that the points raised above that the swp is a party of revolutionary socialists, not feminists, black nationalists etc have been. It is not an insult to be a feminist; it is something that revolutionary socialists are not, although we engage with them as has already been said. I understand there have been severe problems over the last number of years, problems which contributed to my own departure from it. Structure and democracy, well maybe, but i think this current situation is born out of frustration, of being unable to grow, unable to keep the membership and being unsure why. The lack of tangible class struggle and instead anti-capitalism threw many comrades who could not grasp what was going on, what it mean't and what the implications were, many party members did 'tail' the movement, and also i would say, looking back although i didn't participate, there were levels of depravity, a lack of a sense of what comrades were doing in the party ( i hope you know what i mean as i don't really wish to spell this out ). I think Richard and others are right to try to address this situation, and i also think the so called 'loyalists' are right to attempt to hold the party together and hold on to a revolutionary socialist solution to womens oppression. It has been a test too, the results from conference were a majority to accept, yes it was a slim majority but democratic centralism requires rigorous debate and them all acting with the majority decision, perhaps we can learn that from all of this too.Sophie Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04336695401529252201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-83866494506349988262013-02-02T02:42:54.283-08:002013-02-02T02:42:54.283-08:00"Politically or 'sexually'. The dc of..."Politically or 'sexually'. The dc of the SWP agonised and split over whether there was an outside chance that delta might have harassed someone. if any of them had imagined for a second that he had actually raped someone, let alone had a history of repeated rape, he'd have been out the door quicker than you can say 'Where we stand'"<br /><br />Says an SWP member at the discussion forum 'Urban 75.' Totally and ludicrously missing the entire point of why people are so angry about this. <br /><br />http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/swp-expulsions-and-squabbles.303876/page-157<br /><br />If this remains the 'line' of the SWP and moves are not made to overhaul the organisation the SWP is finished. Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360717684013426918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-41918307106350746192013-02-02T00:58:28.311-08:002013-02-02T00:58:28.311-08:00It would seem that questions about party structure...It would seem that questions about party structures are arising largely due to the way that the DC was handled, and concerns around the process suppressed. If you accept that there seem to be some serious issues around the DC which at least warrant internal scrutiny and possible change, then the fact that this seems to be the last thing on the party's agenda leads to bigger questions as to how this can possibly be. There doesn't seem to be widespread support for eg permanent factions and other radical changes (so the accusations re: 'creeping isms' are a red herring), but the failure of the leadership to respond to its membership and the crisis generally risks worsening the situation and undermining trust in organisational matters, both inside and out. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01137971337155189183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-89462756856248200052013-02-01T15:16:34.643-08:002013-02-01T15:16:34.643-08:00Yes Phil, I am sorry I genuinely dont mean to be a...Yes Phil, I am sorry I genuinely dont mean to be arrogant. I dont live in the UK anymore, and I do not know all the facts. But of course like many socialists outside of the SWp I do care about what happens. This very International Socialist blog has several statements from groups of non members and foreign based socialists telling SWP members how to deal with the dispute within the party, isnt that arrogance on their part then too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-55039411305622049382013-02-01T15:05:31.136-08:002013-02-01T15:05:31.136-08:00Pipe down. Pipe down. Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05410231599114135892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-67592592730354278682013-02-01T14:18:07.119-08:002013-02-01T14:18:07.119-08:00Writing as a non-member of the SWP, it strikes me ...Writing as a non-member of the SWP, it strikes me as the height of arrogance for non-members to tell current members how to deal with disputes within the party. Can you not imagine that there might be situations when root-and-branch reform of the party would become necessary? Or that such a situation might have arisen?Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-47752431367797817882013-02-01T13:48:22.264-08:002013-02-01T13:48:22.264-08:00Writing as a none(ex)member of swp: I noticed in m...Writing as a none(ex)member of swp: I noticed in most of the Swss statements that you carry here, there is an assertion that "feminism" should not be used as an insult. Well clearly to call someone a feminist is not in itself an insult; neither is it an insult to call someone a black nationalist or Irish republican, or anti imperialist, or a peace campaigner, or even a trade unionist. The point is that the Swp is a not a party of feminists but one of revolutionary socialists. In working with feminists,trade unionists, anti imperialists etc it has always been thought necessary to guard against diluting the revolutionary political conciousness of party members. I would say that even a quick reading of the Swss statements would give ample evidence for the other claimed insult of autonomism. The Swp is so much more than Stop the War and the ANL.<br /> Yes the alleged rape incident may have been dealt with better, but you have voted on it at conference, and you have narrowly lost. But you have lost. It seems to me that since you have lost the party vote you have now moved to persuade the Swp s periphary of your case. Although you claim to be members of the Swp , you are in fact openly engaged in public anti Swp agitation. <br />To claim to be in the tradition of Cliff , Hallas, Harman is to have understood nothing of their lives work. Clearly they would have been your most vigourous opponents. <br />I am surprised you havent been expelled already.But hey, maybe tomorrow. To genuine SWP members and SWSS members I would reccomend talking to the older members of the branch. To the older members , you have to patiently explain the need for discipline based on political understanding of the need for a genuine Leninist party, Trotsky and Luxemburg both came to accept that view.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-62557613199605078282013-02-01T11:32:39.113-08:002013-02-01T11:32:39.113-08:00Hi Linda, must disagree with your first point. I b...Hi Linda, must disagree with your first point. I believe there is a duty on the party to investigate a serious complaint against a member. This said there is much merit in your suggestions on how such an investigation should proceed.<br /><br />One small disagreement are your comments on a police investigation taking precedence. My experience is that the practice of employers waiting for a police investigation and/or a court hearing before dealing with a disciplinary matter is becoming more rare. Many employers now proceed and use the argument that the burden of proof in a disciplinary is the balence of probabilities rather than the more testing criminal proof of beyond a reasonable doubt.<br /><br />I have a more serious concern about how this debate is proceeding. There is widespread concern about the DC report reflected in the narrow vote at conference. However with regard to some of the other issues eg permanent factions there is not the same widespread support hence the more significant majorities against those proposals at conference. <br /><br />I think the support for radical change to the SWP structures is a minority, even if a significant minority. Should we be concentrating on changing the DC process and I would argue clarify other aspects of party discipline rather than press for changes that have not yet got majority support.David Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13700924899442591120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-18290974325375613572013-02-01T11:10:28.723-08:002013-02-01T11:10:28.723-08:00"Such power roles are at the heart of 'da..."Such power roles are at the heart of 'date rape' - and they make it a very different crime to murder. Sorry, but if you do not see that, then i think you dont have a very thorough understanding of what rape is." belboid<br /><br />Are you suggesting that power roles aren't at the heart of murder? Something like 3 women a week get murdered by male partners/ ex-partners in the UK (I think it's on the order of 3 a day in the US). Maybe you think murder is about strangers jumping on people in dark alleys.<br /><br />In other words, I don't think your claim that the murder analogy is absurd holds up.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02378852135619499306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-41405149962518272062013-02-01T08:41:23.400-08:002013-02-01T08:41:23.400-08:00Linda's entire post is about "what else a...Linda's entire post is about "what else an organisation can do"! I think the key point is 2 - the party could have acknowledged that it was in no position to investigate, adjudicate and if necessary punish a rape, and that something else would need to be done. (As for *what* else, well, re-read the post.)<br /><br />What the party gains from internal dispute resolution, it seems to me, is closure - both in the sense that a line is drawn and everyone moves on, and in the sense that the details of each individual case are closed off to everyone not involved in resolving them. In the case of a crime as serious as rape, I think this is an appalling way to operate. If Delta had been expelled, would his crime have been made public? Presumably not - look at the other nine cases, or rather don't. I'm sure those men were all gutted to be expelled from the party, but otherwise they've got off scot-free - and their current partners, friends, comrades have no idea about their past. I'm all for the rehabilitation of ex-offenders, but I think that's taking it a bit too far.<br /><br />As for "the role of the party in the crimes being committed", I admit I can't think of any murder cases in Britain arising out of party work, party discipline or power relations within a party, but it's hardly an absurd idea; I think it's all too easy to imagine.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5908220527644712259.post-87276580122700953932013-02-01T06:55:45.704-08:002013-02-01T06:55:45.704-08:00I'm afraid I find that a deeply unconvincing a...I'm afraid I find that a deeply unconvincing argument. The comparison with murder is little short of absurd - not because one is a 'proper' crime, but because of the (possible) role of the party in the crimes being committed. one of the reasons Delta was in a position to carry out a rape [whether he did so or not, he was clearly 'in a position to'] was because of his role within the party. The fact that he is a senior figure gives him power and influence, it makes it harder to refuse his attentions. Such power roles are at the heart of 'date rape' - and they make it a very different crime to murder. Sorry, but if you do not see that, then i think you dont have a very thorough understanding of what rape is.<br /><br />As to whether expulsion is 'adequate' - this is a ridiculous non-argument. Can you show one person saying that it would be 'adequate'? No, because it obviously isn't. But what else can an organisation do, apart from exclude individuals from participation in its activities (and letting it be known why that person is excluded). Of course that is inadequate, but if the complainant choose not to go through the bourgeois courts, then the party has no power to impose any greater sanction (except maybe down a dark alley one night - would that be any better?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com